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- BeShirtHappy, on 11/20/2008, -27/+36This is a very good post. It's time to stop the blame game... and take responsibility for our actions.
- selmer, on 11/21/2008, -4/+27I blame you.
- Shakermaker83, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5 We live in two Americas. One America, now the minority, functions in a print-based, literate world. It can cope with complexity and has the intellectual tools to separate illusion from truth. The other America, which constitutes the majority, exists in a non-reality-based belief system. This America, dependent on skillfully manipulated images for information, has severed itself from the literate, print-based culture. It cannot differentiate between lies and truth. It is informed by simplistic, childish narratives and clichés. It is thrown into confusion by ambiguity, nuance and self-reflection. This divide, more than race, class or gender, more than rural or urban, believer or nonbeliever, red state or blue state, has split the country into radically distinct, unbridgeable and antagonistic entities.
There are over 42 million American adults, 20 percent of whom hold high school diplomas, who cannot read, as well as the 50 million who read at a fourth- or fifth-grade level. Nearly a third of the nation’s population is illiterate or barely literate. And their numbers are growing by an estimated 2 million a year. But even those who are supposedly literate retreat in huge numbers into this image-based existence. A third of high school graduates, along with 42 percent of college graduates, never read a book after they finish school. Eighty percent of the families in the United States last year did not buy a book.
The illiterate rarely vote, and when they do vote they do so without the ability to make decisions based on textual information. American political campaigns, which have learned to speak in the comforting epistemology of images, eschew real ideas and policy for cheap slogans and reassuring personal narratives. Political propaganda now masquerades as ideology. Political campaigns have become an experience. They do not require cognitive or self-critical skills. They are designed to ignite pseudo-religious feelings of euphoria, empowerment and collective salvation. Campaigns that succeed are carefully constructed psychological instruments that manipulate fickle public moods, emotions and impulses, many of which are subliminal. They create a public ecstasy that annuls individuality and fosters a state of mindlessness. They thrust us into an eternal present. They cater to a nation that now lives in a state of permanent amnesia. It is style and story, not content or history or reality, which inform our politics and our lives. We prefer happy illusions. And it works because so much of the American electorate, including those who should know better, blindly cast ballots for slogans, smiles, the cheerful family tableaux, narratives and the perceived sincerity and the attractiveness of candidates. We confuse how we feel with knowledge.
The illiterate and semi-literate, once the campaigns are over, remain powerless. They still cannot protect their children from dysfunctional public schools. They still cannot understand predatory loan deals, the intricacies of mortgage papers, credit card agreements and equity lines of credit that drive them into foreclosures and bankruptcies. They still struggle with the most basic chores of daily life from reading instructions on medicine bottles to filling out bank forms, car loan documents and unemployment benefit and insurance papers. They watch helplessly and without comprehension as hundreds of thousands of jobs are shed. They are hostages to brands. Brands come with images and slogans. Images and slogans are all they understand. Many eat at fast food restaurants not only because it is cheap but because they can order from pictures rather than menus. And those who serve them, also semi-literate or illiterate, punch in orders on cash registers whose keys are marked with symbols and pictures. This is our brave new world.
Political leaders in our post-literate society no longer need to be competent, sincere or honest. They only need to appear to have these qualities. Most of all they need a story, a narrative. The reality of the narrative is irrelevant. It can be completely at odds with the facts. The consistency and emotional appeal of the story are paramount. The most essential skill in political theater and the consumer culture is artifice. Those who are best at artifice succeed. Those who have not mastered the art of artifice fail. In an age of images and entertainment, in an age of instant emotional gratification, we do not seek or want honesty. We ask to be indulged and entertained by clichés, stereotypes and mythic narratives that tell us we can be whomever we want to be, that we live in the greatest country on Earth, that we are endowed with superior moral and physical qualities and that our glorious future is preordained, either because of our attributes as Americans or because we are blessed by God or both.
The ability to magnify these simple and childish lies, to repeat them and have surrogates repeat them in endless loops of news cycles, gives these lies the aura of an uncontested truth. We are repeatedly fed words or phrases like yes we can, maverick, change, pro-life, hope or war on terror. It feels good not to think. All we have to do is visualize what we want, believe in ourselves and summon those hidden inner resources, whether divine or national, that make the world conform to our desires. Reality is never an impediment to our advancement.
The Princeton Review analyzed the transcripts of the Gore-Bush debates, the Clinton-Bush-Perot debates of 1992, the Kennedy-Nixon debates of 1960 and the Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858. It reviewed these transcripts using a standard vocabulary test that indicates the minimum educational standard needed for a reader to grasp the text. During the 2000 debates, George W. Bush spoke at a sixth-grade level (6.7) and Al Gore at a seventh-grade level (7.6). In the 1992 debates, Bill Clinton spoke at a seventh-grade level (7.6), while George H.W. Bush spoke at a sixth-grade level (6.8), as did H. Ross Perot (6.3). In the debates between John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon, the candidates spoke in language used by 10th-graders. In the debates of Abraham Lincoln and Stephen A. Douglas the scores were respectively 11.2 and 12.0. In short, today’s political rhetoric is designed to be comprehensible to a 10-year-old child or an adult with a sixth-grade reading level. It is fitted to this level of comprehension because most Americans speak, think and are entertained at this level. This is why serious film and theater and other serious artistic expression, as well as newspapers and books, are being pushed to the margins of American society. Voltaire was the most famous man of the 18th century. Today the most famous “person” is Mickey Mouse.
In our post-literate world, because ideas are inaccessible, there is a need for constant stimulus. News, political debate, theater, art and books are judged not on the power of their ideas but on their ability to entertain. Cultural products that force us to examine ourselves and our society are condemned as elitist and impenetrable. Hannah Arendt warned that the marketization of culture leads to its degradation, that this marketization creates a new celebrity class of intellectuals who, although well read and informed themselves, see their role in society as persuading the masses that “Hamlet” can be as entertaining as “The Lion King” and perhaps as educational. “Culture,” she wrote, “is being destroyed in order to yield entertainment.”
“There are many great authors of the past who have survived centuries of oblivion and neglect,” Arendt wrote, “but it is still an open question whether they will be able to survive an entertaining version of what they have to say.”
The change from a print-based to an image-based society has transformed our nation. Huge segments of our population, especially those who live in the embrace of the Christian right and the consumer culture, are completely unmoored from reality. They lack the capacity to search for truth and cope rationally with our mounting social and economic ills. They seek clarity, entertainment and order. They are willing to use force to impose this clarity on others, especially those who do not speak as they speak and think as they think. All the traditional tools of democracies, including dispassionate scientific and historical truth, facts, news and rational debate, are useless instruments in a world that lacks the capacity to use them.
As we descend into a devastating economic crisis, one that Barack Obama cannot halt, there will be tens of millions of Americans who will be ruthlessly thrust aside. As their houses are foreclosed, as their jobs are lost, as they are forced to declare bankruptcy and watch their communities collapse, they will retreat even further into irrational fantasy. They will be led toward glittering and self-destructive illusions by our modern Pied Pipers—our corporate advertisers, our charlatan preachers, our television news celebrities, our self-help gurus, our entertainment industry and our political demagogues—who will offer increasingly absurd forms of escapism.
The core values of our open society, the ability to think for oneself, to draw independent conclusions, to express dissent when judgment and common sense indicate something is wrong, to be self-critical, to challenge authority, to understand historical facts, to separate truth from lies, to advocate for change and to acknowledge that there are other views, different ways of being, that are morally and socially acceptable, are dying. Obama used hundreds of millions of dollars in campaign funds to appeal to and manipulate this illiteracy and irrationalism to his advantage, but these forces will prove to be his most deadly nemesis once they collide with the awful reality that awaits us. - mvlazysusan, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2Shakermak, please accept this invitation of friend. and this may make you laugh! it's a vid of the cops raiding my boat and that may not sound very funny it is! The cop says "I'm just the middle man and I was sent out here" The cop admits that he has no jurisdiction, The cop says "I.m not talking with out my attorney present" and " I'm just here to run it by you're lawyer". At 7:40 am Sunday and on and on. It's so funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n11qnAJP1VI
`
;~} - jefbob, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2@mvlazysusan - wtf was that all about? That guy sounds like hes just bored and trying to start ***** with the police, but I can't be sure since I don't have any clue why they were there or what the situation was.
- Shakermaker83, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5 We live in two Americas. One America, now the minority, functions in a print-based, literate world. It can cope with complexity and has the intellectual tools to separate illusion from truth. The other America, which constitutes the majority, exists in a non-reality-based belief system. This America, dependent on skillfully manipulated images for information, has severed itself from the literate, print-based culture. It cannot differentiate between lies and truth. It is informed by simplistic, childish narratives and clichés. It is thrown into confusion by ambiguity, nuance and self-reflection. This divide, more than race, class or gender, more than rural or urban, believer or nonbeliever, red state or blue state, has split the country into radically distinct, unbridgeable and antagonistic entities.
- Autodidaddict, on 11/21/2008, -2/+42I have to be honest when I say "***** You Andy" (Andy = author of this article).
Of course there is blame on people who irresponsibly took out mortgages when they couldn't afford the payments or didn't understand how an ARM works.
What is real ***** is for the millions of Americans who played by the rules...and are now getting ***** by this mess. The kind of people that maintain good credit, and took out a mortgage that was within their means...yet now their whole neighborhood has lost 30% value. They were not the sleazy lenders nor the stupid recipient's. Yet they suffer too...we all do.
The point of blame should be to fix problems. And although the people getting these mortgages and then defaulting is part of the equation, it is hard to fix the problem on this end. Humans will always want more than they can have or afford.
What can be fixed is banks and lenders not caring about whether the mortgage is defaulted on because they are just selling the mortgage as a security to someone else. What can be fixed is these institutions encouraging their employees to rack up as many loans as possible to any random ***** because that means more profit on their pocket.
To cast blame on irresponsible borrowers is obvious. Both the lenders and borrowers were being greedy. The borrowers were being greedy wanting what they couldn't afford. The lenders were being greedy loaning out other people's money not caring if it gets paid back because they still get their cut. But at least the lenders knew better. Ignorance is no defense for criminal acts, but I blame preditory greed more than ignorant greed. - xtraa, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3yea, let's all say sorry.
Sorry that I can't join you, my private jet is waiting. - dynelol, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2I thought we were blaming the war for this? lol
- ghostoftomjoad, on 11/21/2008, -7/+6wrong. the was created by a terrible system of incentives. Incentives for borrowers, lenders, and everyone in between. Those incentives were created by rich people, for rich people. Don't tell me it's a borrowers fault when that borrower was told they were getting a good deal by people who knew better than him, didn't get a good enough education (which he should be entitled to), did have the government watching his back AT ALL, didn't have a safety net, didn't have a place to live otherwise, lived in a society where he was judged and valued by his material possessions, etc, etc, etc.
- ninjaturtles1, on 11/21/2008, -3/+5Give me a break! Geez!
I guess the banks and government are meant to assume everyone is retarded? - BloodWenis, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Buried. You lost me at 'entitled.' This is America: Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness', that's it.
Upon a second reading, I'm still waiting to see you edit the post and close your saracasm tag. - ghostoftomjoad, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1@ Ninjaturtles: the government should step in when there is an obvious unfairness in the situation like this (even somehow who sort of knew what they were talking about could get screwed when dealing with professionals--the fact that it became a trend and not a bunch of isolated incidents proves that)
@ Bloodwenis: Democracy breaks down when there is no education. if you believe in democracy or meritocracy then you believe that every person is entitled an education. Also life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is in the declaration of independence, which (sadly) has no legal implications at all. The constitution paints another picture entirely
- ninjaturtles1, on 11/21/2008, -3/+5Give me a break! Geez!
- apothekari, on 11/21/2008, -1/+10I never bought a House I couldn't afford. And I don't know anyone who has.
I have never owned a new car.
I have lived paycheck to paycheck for my entire life, and I am lower middle class.
I know only one person in my circles who has ran out and bought stuff willy nilly without regard for cost or anything.I only have 1 credit card.
I haven't been able to take a Vacation in almost 7 years and that last one was one my In laws paid for a week at Disney.{we kicked a little in on gas food and hotel}
We live humbly and not exactly by choice, we have for years.
So I have absolutely NO blame in this current mess.
And I am getting REALLY tired of conservatives blaming me and poorer than me for this ***** mess.
Who ran out and bought house after house in order to "flip" them and make gobs of cash???!!!
Hmmmmm?...I remember working my ass off to get the loan I got for my home in early 2001 and had to make sure that I even cleaned up a couple of things before it was approved.So to me personally I think this whole "people went crazy buying ***** they didn't need" stuff is total *****.
You have to have SOME money in order to spend it OR get credit.
Otherwise you are shown the door.- bryanedds, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1*edit
- EarlOfLade, on 11/21/2008, -5/+4Oh please!!
So, you and your friends all of a sudden is a representative selection and what is your situation automatically extends across the country? Can you say logical fallacy?
I'm sorry to hear that you are upset, I couldn't care less! I saw this coming in 2000 with the presidential election. I knew that the next few years would be the voerspiel to an economic disaster and I directed my finances after that view and made myself recession proof. This economic crisis has been kicking you int he balls for years, you and the rest of the country just added more ice and continued. Nobody paid attention when the economy started to overheat? You didn't ask yourself a single question? Not even when Bush told USA to go shopping? Really?
I agree with the author of the article and I am a social democrat. - NTolerance, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2If you're living paycheck to paycheck you bought a house you can't afford.
- getbusyliving, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1You should get a trade. I hear plumbing pays pretty well.
- bryanedds, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1*edit
- bryanedds, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5Yeah, I guess it's all my fault that the Federal Reserve has been a reckless parasite on the American and world economy since 1913.
http://mises.org/MONEY//1.ASP
My bad that the economy is run by elitist economic illiterates in congress and the executive (even though it's SUPPOSED to be a free market).
http://jim.com/econ/chap01p1.html
Totally my mistake that control of private capital has been usurped by vampiric government interventionists / regulators.
http://mises.org/story/2903
All my fault that "legal tender" laws prohibit sound money. Purely my personal blunder that the government has been bailing out dead-weight corporations for centuries. I can't believe I was so stupid as to pass government regulations that suffocated small businesses and tip the scales in favor of government-privileged corporations. I don't know what I was thinking when I single-handedly passed the Community Reinvestment Act which LEGALLY FORCED banks to make unsound loans to credit-unworthy customers.
I could go on and on, but I feel so guilty now for all that I've done that I can not go on. I have no choice but to slit my unworthy wrists in the hope that the world has one less evil doer such as me.
If only I could have known better...
- The man formerly known as bryanedds- bryanedds, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5Oh, and I'm also sorry for starting those Iraq and Afghanistan wars while placing occupying troops in 150 countries around the world. I had NO idea that transferring productive wealth from the private economy to non-productive purposes was going to have such a big impact. Even though opposed these wars and the whole imperialist boondoggle, I know I am to blame. I know I am also to blame for the bankrupt welfare state as well, even though I oppose that too.
Well, I am starting to bleed out now.
It sure is cold in here.
- The man formerly known as "Stupid Citizen Who Should Be Blamed For Everything So That The Government and its Corporate Buddies Can Be Excused Completely."
- bryanedds, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5Oh, and I'm also sorry for starting those Iraq and Afghanistan wars while placing occupying troops in 150 countries around the world. I had NO idea that transferring productive wealth from the private economy to non-productive purposes was going to have such a big impact. Even though opposed these wars and the whole imperialist boondoggle, I know I am to blame. I know I am also to blame for the bankrupt welfare state as well, even though I oppose that too.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5I blame the fact that they can take a 10% interest credit card and turn it into a 31% interest balance for NO fault of my own just because "the terms say we can" and I have no recourse.
I blame the gov for consume at MINIMUM 1000 times more resources than it needs.
I blame the gov for creating a welfare state
I blame the entire system that makes it ok for more than 100% interest to be "ok" on mortgages. (anything over 4.8% apr for a 30 year loan is more than 100% interest! do the math)
I blame the oil co's and gov for letting them DESTROY alternative energy projects.
I blame GM for killing the Electric car and the GOV helping them kill it
I blame GM for selling the battery patent that could SAVE our economy a minimum of 1 trillion dollars a year to chevron (and thats only DIRECT savings not taking into account the TRILLIONS of dollars in secondary savings potential)
I blame the gov for letting media consolidation get so out of control that we have NO FREE press any longer but promulgating the illusion that its working so the people are none the wiser (and still aren't)
I blame the gov for giving over 700billion dollar to an industry with the stroke of a pen and then are surprised when its all spend on themselves. I HAVE NO ECONOMIC EDUCATION and I predicted that one.
I blame the gov for stalling it so they could add 150billion in pork to it
I blame the gov for passing FISA when I said NO
I blame the gov for going to war in iraq ILLEGALLY
I blame the gov for having unneeded bases all over the planet
I blame the gov for funding terrorists (knowingly)
I blame the gov for the patriot act and the mill comm act
I blame the gov for not preventing monopolies (effective or actual) from forming
I blame the gov for inflation and fiat currency.
I blame the gov for striping us of our property rights so that NO american can own property any longer with very few exceptions.
Please enlighten me as to exactly which decisions I could have possibly made in the 32 years I have resided on this planet to result in ANY of these things taking place?- getbusyliving, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1At least you aren't blaming Canada..
- cowsgonemadd3, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1True but the government demanded loans be given to people who could not pay them so everyone could have the chance at the American dream.
- MWeather, on 11/22/2008, -0/+2Only 1 in 12 foreclosures come from those loans.
- selmer, on 11/21/2008, -4/+27I blame you.
- theberlindoctor, on 11/20/2008, -15/+231Guess what: I didn't take out a loan without knowing what I was getting into. I didn't buy a house above my income level. I didn't leverage my mortgage to buy ***** I didnt need. I don't even own a credit card.
So ***** you, its not my fault.- BeShirtHappy, on 11/20/2008, -3/+33I don't think the author of the blog meant "you" or those of us that did not buy a home that was more than we could afford, etc. It's those people that did live beyond their means that scream the loudest that it's our government/banks fault.
- zeblith, on 11/21/2008, -1/+4I'm putting the most blame on the idiots who ran out and bought SUVs in record numbers the SECOND gas prices started to fall. Not that that's the cause, by any means, but it's a great litmus test for sheer ***** stupidity.
- AmyVernon, on 11/20/2008, -11/+23@theberlindoctor - Don't take stuff so personally. Chill.
- Autodidaddict, on 11/21/2008, -3/+32He doesn't have to chill. Many millions of hard-working fair and honest Americans who played by the rules are now the ones being punished by all this crazy *****. When the housing market tanks and home value deflates, it doesn't just happen to the houses that get foreclosed. It affects the whole neighborhood.
It's unfair, and people have a right to be angry. - gwolf, on 11/21/2008, -2/+8Some like to blame the Clinton administration for trying to make housing more accessible to the lower middle class. The truth is that current administration did everything it could to make sure the predatory lending practices stayed in place long after things started to get out of hand.
Some states even tried to protect their citizens from these molesters and W intervened on behalf of the lenders to prevent it. We have had laws in place for a long time to prevent these abuses, but they are worthless if the executive branch chooses not to enforce them. In an atmosphere where an avalanche of lies was employed to coax ordinary people into bad decisions, it really doesn't make sense to blame the victims.
- Autodidaddict, on 11/21/2008, -3/+32He doesn't have to chill. Many millions of hard-working fair and honest Americans who played by the rules are now the ones being punished by all this crazy *****. When the housing market tanks and home value deflates, it doesn't just happen to the houses that get foreclosed. It affects the whole neighborhood.
- theberlindoctor, on 11/20/2008, -0/+94Getting screwed out of retirement or laid off for other people's bad decisions is quite a personal experience. And then being told its time to take my share of the blame for something I was intelligent enough not to take part in is equally personally offensive.
- Cancerkitty, on 11/20/2008, -0/+18I completely understand your frustrations. We've always been prudent too: small home, used cars, etc. However, we're taking it up the ass nonetheless because of the people who weren't.
I think this article is directed all all the people hip-deep in debt that are trying to point fingers elsewhere. And there are a lot of those guys. Hell, I work with about a dozen of them. - duffman03, on 11/21/2008, -0/+9We, and probably most diggers belong to the (relatively) financially smart side of America. The other side doesn't bother to keep money aside for a rainy day and is financially retard. And now instead of liquidating their bad loans WE get to pay them off, thanks to our politicians. So screw the people who think they can live a lifestyle beyond their means and the politicians who protect them.
- psychotron, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3You would be surprised my friend. You and a couple of others here (and hopefully me and my wife, I think) are a rare breed. Sure, we live within our means, buy what we can afford, save, no debt. Look around though, how many people like that do you know? Me? No one. Everyone in my family, my friends, my coworkers, they are all the people described in the article.
- Titan615, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5Its not exactly that we are a rare breed, its more like there are 60 million or so morons out there who dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of. Now the other 300 million of us are stuck with a ***** economy cause they are too F****in stupid to manage their finances properly.
If you can't afford it don't buy it. Plain simple. If you can't pay it back don't take it. Thats all.
- Cancerkitty, on 11/20/2008, -0/+18I completely understand your frustrations. We've always been prudent too: small home, used cars, etc. However, we're taking it up the ass nonetheless because of the people who weren't.
- northwatuppa, on 11/20/2008, -12/+5Come on. Take the blogger's point. It's a good one.
I have some of the same feelings as you express, but I also share the blogger's feelings.- jsmu, on 11/21/2008, -4/+3No, the blogger is just another imbecile who by his own admission got a C-minus in economics (LOL), who thinks this silly little reductionist drivel is fresh and controversial. There is nothing new about blaming the victim. There is no point here, much less a good one. LOL!
- DrPaul2008, on 11/21/2008, -3/+7Do you support lying parasite politicians?
- Autodidaddict, on 11/21/2008, -0/+16@theberlindoctor:
I just finished writing my post (its a response to the very first post in the comments section) when I read your comment and I couldn't agree more.
The real victims here are the innocent bystanders that played by the rules. - PoizonFrog, on 11/21/2008, -0/+11I'm with the doctor on this one. I didn't partake of the activities that caused the demise. The self-indulgent had their fun at everyone else's expense.
- homercles337, on 11/21/2008, -0/+11Agreed. I didnt do any financially stupid things. However, i do have a couple credit cards that i use, but they have low to no balance. My rent is not out of my means by being under 30% (23% actually) and i dont even own a car. Do i get a cookie? I sure as hell am not getting a big chunk of cash because i didnt drive any business into the ground. Maybe a cookie is all i can expect?
- ACalcutt, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5no..you can expect nothing as usual.
no cookie for you
- ACalcutt, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5no..you can expect nothing as usual.
- harrisbradley, on 11/21/2008, -6/+7same here, AND I voted for Ron Paul.
- navghtivs, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Same here, for years I carefully planned my personal finance, saved enough money so the government can now take it away to bailout some people whose IQ is less than half of mine.
- EntropyFan, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4Funny, everyone now says that.
- daimonion, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Technically, you don't own the credit card or anything else for that matter because the tender you use is on loan.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -4/+1then you are either wealthy or NEVER take out loans because you can NEVER know what your getting into because they all have CLAUSES that say we can alter the conditions ANY GOD DAMNED TIME WE PLEASE.
Or there is a merger and you MUST accept the NEW conditions because your not wealthy enough to pay off the balance in one payment before the merger happens.
Go jack on on some other forum you moron. - xtreme571, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2I'm with you on this. Even though we are looking to sell our townhouse to get a single family, we will wait until our house sells, unlike some people i've seen, buy a new house and have 2 payments to pay...so which one do they pay??? The old one which is holding more equity, or the new one they want to get??
I use credit cards. I've got like 4 or 5, and I don't charge anything which I can't pay for by the due date. For big items, like TV, laptop etc...there is always interest free financing available from the stores like Amazon, NewEgg and even some credit cards. I pay all my bills on time, so I don't have to pay financing charges/late fees and etc.
People stupid enough to fall for the marketing gimmicks, "free" stuff, "NEED" big SUVs to go to work, and "NEED" to go shopping for clothes/shoes every week, "NEED" that big house even though they cant afford it, "NEED" to buy a BMW 5 Series even though they know they won't be able to make payments, are the cause of this problem.
These people don't know how to handle money. They think "Charge the cards, and if we can't pay them, file bankruptcy and start over" I'm sick of hearing people talk this way, as they are screwing every1 else over.
Companies...They are shifting their labor outside the US. Cutting jobs in the US to save money. Who are they going to sell their products to??? Who can afford their products if the people don't have jobs to pay for those products?? Isn't their marketing/accounting department suppose to bring this questions up before they cut jobs??
Government...giving tax cuts to businesses even though they make billions??? giving them bailouts because they made stupid decisions while knowing the end result. I am a responsible consumer, pay my bills/tax on time, don't have any debt apart from mortgage and car loan, which I have not missed a single payment. Not a single payment has been late. Where the ***** is my ***** tax cut??
/end rant- laurenvb, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1Well, If I was a company owner and it was save my family and pay my bills, I might have to cut jobs too. I'm sure they do think about the outcome, but sometimes they don't have much of a choice.
Other than that, I agree with you on everything else.
- laurenvb, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1Well, If I was a company owner and it was save my family and pay my bills, I might have to cut jobs too. I'm sure they do think about the outcome, but sometimes they don't have much of a choice.
- daveybee, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Good for you - there's a lot of us that haven't acted irresponsibly. But I've worked in both Real Estate and Car sales in the past few years and I can tell you that lot - LOTS - of people have lived well beyond their means. Everyone from PhDs to high school dropouts justify that they "need" what they want. Everyone wants someone to blame, but no one wants to blame themselves. I'm not saying you specifically are to blame, but I can tell you a large percentage of the public is. Our average national savings rate is NEGATIVE! More people are spending what they don't have (credit cards, loans, etc) than saving. That's a fact and that's the reason the banks are going under. Yeah the banks and insurance companies and auto companies are to blame too.
- BeShirtHappy, on 11/20/2008, -3/+33I don't think the author of the blog meant "you" or those of us that did not buy a home that was more than we could afford, etc. It's those people that did live beyond their means that scream the loudest that it's our government/banks fault.
- onlysc, on 11/20/2008, -6/+12ah, both comments make valid points. blame game or no blame game... who's to say?
- TheInformer, on 11/21/2008, -7/+3During the time when Bush was the POTUS, everything was his fault. Now that Obama is the POTUS-elect, nothing will be his fault, starting here.
- qwertyxuiop, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4remain calm
you will get plenty of chances to blame stuff on Obama, don't make your self look silly by jumping the gun.
- qwertyxuiop, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4remain calm
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2I don't think the problem is lack of personal responsibility; after all, probably 90% of Americans are paying their bills every month. The problem is that the other 10% won't be held accountable, nor will the legislators who compounded and amplified the problems.
- TheInformer, on 11/21/2008, -7/+3During the time when Bush was the POTUS, everything was his fault. Now that Obama is the POTUS-elect, nothing will be his fault, starting here.
- AmyVernon, on 11/20/2008, -3/+18Word. When you live above — or almost to the edge of — your means, you can't start freaking out when things go badly. OK, you can, but then you're just an ass.
- fatrandy13, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1haha wow, personal responsibility? this won't fly... there are too many democrats...
- matthekc, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Except we are living above our means as a country. With 4% of the world population American consumes almost 25% of a number of world resources. Our standard of living will go down if we can't figure out how to use resources more efficiently.
- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -6/+53There are several problems with this line of thinking. First, people try to take the easiest way out. Sorting blame between many different areas is not going to work for most people. They need to point at a single group in order to understand it.
Second, the government has more of a role in terms of "blame" than a lot of people realize. Encouraging spending at the expense of saving is irresponsible and reckless, yet it has been going on for a very long time. Also, the borrow and spend example given to us by our government has said to many people that, at the highest levels, this is not only acceptable, but a smart way to manage finances. If it's good enough for the country as a whole, it should be good enough for the smaller-scale individual, no?
Third, predatory lending practices CANNOT be ignored. There is an article in this week's Newsweek that talks about small banks and credit unions that loaned money to high-risk borrowers and have the lowest instances of default across the country. These small banks and credit unions are getting to know the individuals and attempting to give them what will actually be a benefit to the consumer, as opposed to trying to get a bonus for foisting extra fees and dangers on the people who think they're getting the American Dream. In a situation where people are encouraged to not read the fine print and who are made to trust the people who are selling them things they not only don't need, but will cause them harm in the future, predatory lending practices (not just of large banks and mortgage brokers, but also of credit card companies) need to be seriously looked at.
Finally, while I know that there are certainly some people who took advantage of what they saw as a "something for nothing" deal, most people who are affected by the economic situation had little to do with creating it. I'm watching the people around me who have good credit ratings, who spend within their means, who don't take out loans or pay with credit cards (or pay off the credit cards at the end of the month) and who pay their bills on time are the ones losing their jobs and unable to find something else. These are the people who did not exacerbate the situation and, in fact, did everything right.
The problem with putting the blame on the consumers is that the few who helped to create this problem are small in number and don't represent the general population. These are people who either tried to take advantage of the market and the low housing prices, who were ignorant about the realities of home ownership or severe debt or who had their situations change on them with little to no warning. The greater problem is what led to the consumers being taken advantage of or being led to believe that carrying extreme loads of debt was acceptable.
I'm sick and tired of people trying to excuse the government and/or big business because the consumers should take responsibility. The bottom line is that this economic crisis has shown a large number of people the dangers of carrying large burdens of debt and those people are now trying to pay it down. Hopefully we'll also see an increase in Americans saving for the long-term. If those behaviors don't already indicate taking responsibilty for their own actions, nothing will, but to blame the state of the entire country's economy on a very small group of its citizens, even to apportion a great enough portion as to say that people aren't *already* doing this, is not only foolish, it's a dangerous line of thinking.- torgo112, on 11/20/2008, -2/+11I think there is plenty of blame to go around, between the public, banks, lenders, traders, and government at all levels. I also think there are a lot more reckless spenders out there than you think.
If you ask me, the last thing this Country needs is an already apathetic and lazy public to sit back and assume that they’ve done nothing wrong, and wait for the gub’ment to fix it for them.- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -0/+14The government isn't fixing ANYTHING for the consumers. Maybe you haven't noticed. So far, what's happening is that the government is REWARDING predatory lenders by giving them money and saying "Now don't be irresponsible with that money" and then looking the other way when they go off on corporate retreats and allowing them to defend massive EOY bonuses because "if we don't give bonuses to our high-tier management, they'll jump ship once the economy recovers".
How, exactly, is this benefiting the general public?
There is a huge difference between reckless spenders and people who default on mortgages. This was a wake up call for most people who have reduced their spending significantly and are making an attempt to change the habits that have been encouraged in them.
For decades, American consumers have been told that it is their patriotic duty to spend money. No money? No worries, here's ANOTHER credit card. Now that people are making the effort to change the habits that they were told made them "good Americans" people are trying to claim that THEY are causing further problems in the economy.
FFS, the Big Three American automakers took separate private jets to Washington to make the claim that they need bailout money. Maybe we should blame the American consumers for not wanting to take on more debt by buying a new car this year.
Very few people are assuming that they've done *NOTHING* wrong, but most people aren't going to take on the blame of a collapsed economic system when their actions were encouraged and endorsed by their own government. The personal responsibility to be taken is to pay down debt, to live within your means and to make a better effort at saving. It is not to take on the failure of the overall economic system that no one person can effect as an individual.
- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -0/+14The government isn't fixing ANYTHING for the consumers. Maybe you haven't noticed. So far, what's happening is that the government is REWARDING predatory lenders by giving them money and saying "Now don't be irresponsible with that money" and then looking the other way when they go off on corporate retreats and allowing them to defend massive EOY bonuses because "if we don't give bonuses to our high-tier management, they'll jump ship once the economy recovers".
- Relaxxation, on 11/20/2008, -2/+4Holy cow! Next time break your comments into chapters for easy reference. ;-)
- revslaughter, on 11/21/2008, -3/+4Geez, I wish I could Digg this comment 80,000 times.
- Chalks777, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2why that's over 9000!
- ninjaturtles1, on 11/21/2008, -2/+4The people vote the government in, so if you blame the government, you are indirectly blaming the general public.
The public wanted lower taxes, lower interests, huge loans so they could by houses car and random other crap! That's why the government put in these polices.
I don't remember anyone protesting about all of this before ***** hit the fan!- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5I guess you missed the word ENCOURAGED in all that so I put in in CAPS here for you.
I had 6 Credit card before I was even aware of what a credit card really was. I was 18 and had other things to worry about.
Now I blame no one for my debt except me. Regardless of what I knew I KNOW what spending money means. You have to pay it back.
I am 32 now and STILL working to pay it off.
NOW here is the part where its NOT my fault.
I did not create a system where 30+% interest is legal.
I did not create a system where MILLIONS of percent APR mandatory "micro loans" are legal (over drafting a bank account)
for 6 years my Debit card worked just like it should. If I charged $3.50 for a gallon of milk and only had $3 in the account something interesting happened. It said DECLINED and that was that.
NOW I get a MANDATORY I have no choice about it 50cent MICRO LOAN and am then charged $35 for this UNWANTED loan that I have NO CHOICE and NO real opportunity to turn down. Remember for 6 years it worked JUST fine.
Do the math on what the equivalent APR is on a $35 fee for a 50cent loan.
I was not the one who said it was legal to ERASE 10 days of transactions from my account and change a $12.50 mistake resulting in a $35 fee into a $400 in fees mistake simply by rewriting history so instead of one overdraw they retroactively reorder it and retroactively apply MORE overdraw fees that in reality never happened.
and this is LEGAL.
I did not make it OK and COMPULSORY to charge over 100% interest on a home loan.
I did not do any of that.
YES I am responsible for my debt
NO I am not responsible for the ABUSE of that debt to turn it into a much larger debt than it originally was.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5I guess you missed the word ENCOURAGED in all that so I put in in CAPS here for you.
- psychotron, on 11/21/2008, -2/+1Good response. However, I think you underestimate the number of people who are responsible consumers.
- torgo112, on 11/20/2008, -2/+11I think there is plenty of blame to go around, between the public, banks, lenders, traders, and government at all levels. I also think there are a lot more reckless spenders out there than you think.
- ssn697, on 11/20/2008, -1/+36What consumers were responsible for the bundling/selling of loans, and associated ***** risk management levels that were made up to boost the value?
- prahareturns, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2The consumers who elected our congressional leaders who pushed Fannie and Freddie to push home ownership through high risk loans. The consumers took advantage of the congressionally pushed high risk loans. The high risk debt had to go somewhere so wall street bundled it and sold it to back to the consumers and businesses who elected/backed the congressional leaders.
Main Street, Wall Street and Capital Hill all carry a portion of the blame. - edmcguirk, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1"the high risk debt had to go somewhere"????
The banks repackaged their risk off their books so that they could leverage themselves into even more loans.
Who forced the banks to over-leverage themselves?
If the banks were not over-leveraged, the housing bubble would have only effected the people who borrowed too much money. Instead not only did the borrowers go under, the lenders went under, and the companies who insured the loans also went under.
How do I blame the domino crashes on the poor stupid sub prime borrowers?
I can only blame the banks for pretending they were not over extended just so that could suck out another year of new loans before everything crashed.
- prahareturns, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2The consumers who elected our congressional leaders who pushed Fannie and Freddie to push home ownership through high risk loans. The consumers took advantage of the congressionally pushed high risk loans. The high risk debt had to go somewhere so wall street bundled it and sold it to back to the consumers and businesses who elected/backed the congressional leaders.
- weeklyworldnews, on 11/20/2008, -7/+18true true... WE, as responsible individuals, should know we can't afford a $1M house if we make less than $100,000....
We should accept that we were in over our heads..- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -0/+15Who is "we"?
Not only did I not buy a house I couldn't afford, I don't know anyone personally who did. So what responsibility do I have in this situation? I live within my means, I pay my bills on time, the vast majority of debt I carry is in my student loans (which I make payments on every month), I don't even own a credit card.
Someone needs to explain to me how I, as a fiscally responsible individual, can take "responsibility" for what happened to the country's economy.- AnotherDiggGuy, on 11/20/2008, -8/+3You could have taught idiotic people how to handle money responsibly.
- chaoswings, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5@AnotherDiggGuy
How exactly are we supposed to do that? Those people are so far removed from reality or consequences that they will do it no matter what you say. The real problem is when entire institutions allow the stupidity to happen....they can after all deny them a mortgage on a house if they wanted. If there is anyone who knows exactly how much you make its the banks and government.
You can't get idiotic people to stop spending because they actually feel they are entitled to it. - Coolkid11, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2You may not be responsible, but the American people along with the people they have elected got us into this mess. Despite what the MSM says, regulation IS what got us into the mess. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were created under FDR. The CRA did encourage subprime lending. The bailout IS bailing out Wall Street fat cats and the inflation IS encouraging excess consumption, and punishing saving.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Good for you man STAY AWAY from credit cards. EVIL things they are.
- prahareturns, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1Coolkid11 is correct. Even though you personally have been fiscally responsible you may have indirectly contributed to the problem via your voting record. It was our elected officials in Congress who pushed Fannie and Freddie to encourage sub-prime lending.
- Mardala, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4A lot of people also purchased houses to flip. They bought them on interest only loans or ARMs assuming they could buy one at $285K and then flip it for $420K before their full loan payments kick in. They didn't live in these homes, they rented them out or bought them before they were built. These were not poor people like most people like to point the blame on, these were middle class Americans taking a risk. Not very many people are talking about these people. I live in Southern California. The cities east of San Bernadino are flooded with housing developments building 3-4 bedroom cookie cutter homes in large gated communities. You don't find poor people living in these. Yet now you can't sell them for the price you paid for them so many people are just taking their losses. My parents live in one out in the inland and their development is not even half finished. All those empty homes were purchased by people wanting to make a quick buck. Now they are owned by banks or being sold for less than what they paid for. Its not the low income bracket that is to blame for it all.
- splorpdotorg, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5@weeklyworldnews
Do the math, again. $100,000 won't get you anywhere near a million dollar house. With tax and insurance, assuming no down payment and no other bills, you'd need in excess of $300,000 a year to handle a million dollar house.- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3My rough rules for purchasing houses or cars:
-don't buy a house that costs more than three times your annual pay (which is approximately what you cited).
-don't buy a car that costs more than 1/4 of your annual pay.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3My rough rules for purchasing houses or cars:
- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -0/+15Who is "we"?
- northwatuppa, on 11/20/2008, -6/+26Oh come on. Just give the blogger some credit for making a good point and stop being so self-righteous.
I lived within my means, avoided buying a condo, invested very conservatively, and don't drive etc., etc., etc., etc. But I live in a town where even 1st year coeds drive SUV's and McMansions sprouted around the outskirts of town like mushrooms after a rain. Overpriced real estate sold like hot cakes.
It isn't hard to see that the blogger in question is not talking about me (or us). But there are plenty of people out there who the shoe does fit.- AmyVernon, on 11/20/2008, -0/+6Precisely. My family, too, has lived within its means. And provided I don't lose my job, we've escaped the worst of the downturn — we even bought a house in foreclosure. But the blogger has a good point. Most of the people yelling the loudest for a bailout are the ones who got themselves and this nation into this mess. Yeah, there are predatory lenders. But people who were never able to buy a house before who suddenly were when the prices were twice as high should have recognized they wouldn't be able to pay their bills.
Greed.- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -2/+5But that's the issue right there. People who were never able to afford a house suddenly found themselves offered a way to buy a house that looked, on the surface, like they could afford it. It wasn't until the rates were *adjusted* that they could no longer afford the terms. I don't think that this is greed as much as optimism. "I can afford this NOW, and if the rates go up (which I have been assured they won't), I'll be in a better financial state.
The people yelling for a bailout are the ones who took the risk of financing people who couldn't afford to pay. The people yelling for a bailout are corporations who don't want to take responsibility for their financial mismanagement. PEOPLE aren't asking to be bailed out. Consumers aren't asking to keep their houses free and clear, they're asking for renegotiation of their mortgages on terms they can afford.
Is it really greed to want what you are told you can have? Is it greed when the media, big business and your own government tell you that it's your right to own a home? When people tell you that you're unsuccessful unless you own property?
To ascribe the failing to the people who are negatively impacted is foolhardy. There are as many, if not more people who are deemed "high risk" who pay their mortgage every month and aren't in danger of foreclosure. The difference is that the people who are still able to pay were given terms that they could meet and payments within their financial reach.
- FyreGoddess, on 11/20/2008, -2/+5But that's the issue right there. People who were never able to afford a house suddenly found themselves offered a way to buy a house that looked, on the surface, like they could afford it. It wasn't until the rates were *adjusted* that they could no longer afford the terms. I don't think that this is greed as much as optimism. "I can afford this NOW, and if the rates go up (which I have been assured they won't), I'll be in a better financial state.
- vivisimonvi, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1On the bright side of things for us savers, there's some really great deals going around (spend within our means of course)! While I could constantly think in my head how bad we're *****, it could possibly start to effect my health.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1TELL me about it man. I see so many delicious tempting killer deals but I am afraid to jump. If things get worse I will regret spending that money so I have to pass them up :-(
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1TELL me about it man. I see so many delicious tempting killer deals but I am afraid to jump. If things get worse I will regret spending that money so I have to pass them up :-(
- AmyVernon, on 11/20/2008, -0/+6Precisely. My family, too, has lived within its means. And provided I don't lose my job, we've escaped the worst of the downturn — we even bought a house in foreclosure. But the blogger has a good point. Most of the people yelling the loudest for a bailout are the ones who got themselves and this nation into this mess. Yeah, there are predatory lenders. But people who were never able to buy a house before who suddenly were when the prices were twice as high should have recognized they wouldn't be able to pay their bills.
- kimsun, on 11/20/2008, -5/+43"If I owe my bank a hundred pounds, I have a problem. If I owe my bank a million pounds, my bank has a problem" - John Maynard Keynes.
The blame falls squarely on the shoulders of central banks and governments.- mmijatov, on 11/20/2008, -2/+7Love it!
- selmer, on 11/21/2008, -1/+4Wha...I don't think that's what Keynes meant. But you get a gold star for creativity.
- ilikeeggs8877, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4Econ 103, micro economics - The person giving out the I.O.U. takes ALL of the risk. Banks need to remember this.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Not in all countries. For example, in Australia, if your home value plunges and your home is foreclosed upon, you still owe the bank the total amount of the loan minus whatever they were able to get for the house. Puts a bit more accountibility on the buyers shoulders and prevents gambling on (flipping) houses.
- DisEm, on 11/21/2008, -2/+2How is it in any way the bank's fault? While I don't believe that what the banks have been doing is right, I don't think blame should be removed from the people who took out the loans. 'Predatory lending' is a joke. The bank doesn't come to your house, put a gun to your head, and force you to take a loan. Its the person's fault, plain and simple. Anyone who places the entire problem on the lenders is in denial.
Personally I think that a CEO should have the same responsibilities of a small business owner, if your business tanks, so should your personal bank account.. that should keep them from lending to everybody.
Last thought: if there was more restricted lending, then everyone would be complaining to congress about how they need to make it easier to get loans. Human nature is inherently flawed. - P5ycHo, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2"If I owe my bank a hundred pounds, I have a problem. If I owe my bank a million pounds, my bank has a problem" - John Maynard Keynes.
Yep, but the blame is still on the guy. He created the problem by borrowing a million pounds.- kimsun, on 11/21/2008, -0/+0If I lend a crackhead $100 and he doen't turn up on the corner of 3rd and North next Tuesday is it the crackhead's "fault" or my "fault"?
- swrostmore, on 11/20/2008, -1/+23"It's not our fault we're richer than ever and you're all *****. It's your fault. Now you get to pay our debts."
Love, Wall Street - emazur, on 11/20/2008, -2/+14You can blame the American people, but don't forget it was the government that encouraged the people to spend recklessly such as by passing the community reinvestment act and by manipulating interest rates - giving cheap credit. Here is what Peter Schiff had to say about it (this was before the Sept. meltdown even occurred):
"What few economic leaders have acknowledged is that the Federal Reserve itself is responsible for the real estate and credit bubbles, which are the source of our current troubles. By keeping interest rates too low for too long, the Fed ignited a speculative fever and engendered a disregard for risk management that pushed asset prices above rational levels. Should we blame the private sector for taking advantage of all the cheap credit, or the Federal Reserve for supplying it? If a kindergarten teacher passes out handfuls of Pixie Sticks, and then leaves her classroom unattended for several hours, should we blame the five year olds for the hysteria that ensues?" - Peter Schiff- slowth, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1Yes, we should blame the adults who act like children; those who don't know what an ARM is, do not read loan terms, do not make basic calculations to verify how much they can borrow, or who are too foolish to ask for assistance if they don't understand any part of the lending process. It doesn't matter what the government encourages you to do, if you can't repay the loan then don't borrow the money!
- sulthernao, on 11/21/2008, -1/+4Give me a break. Most people were flat out lied to by the predatory lenders. Yes, they should still read the fine print and yes the fault is ultimately with them for living beyond their means. But the way you are presenting it is void of the reality.
- slowth, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2I'll say it again, since some like to shunt blame. If you are too foolish to know when you cannot repay a loan, then it's your fault. Yeah, these 'predatory lenders' are forcing big screen tvs and mansions on the hapless public. I understand that sometimes it's easier to pass the buck than to take responsibility, but the reality is loans don't originate out of thin air. Someone must initiate the process, and that is reality, whether you recognize it or not. Welcome to the big leagues, life isn't fair, and it doesn't conform to your notions of reality.
- slowth, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1Yes, we should blame the adults who act like children; those who don't know what an ARM is, do not read loan terms, do not make basic calculations to verify how much they can borrow, or who are too foolish to ask for assistance if they don't understand any part of the lending process. It doesn't matter what the government encourages you to do, if you can't repay the loan then don't borrow the money!
- ajbarthe, on 11/20/2008, -8/+3This is interesting.
- mmijatov, on 11/20/2008, -4/+19Who or what can you blame?
The Federal Government
Blind faith in capitalism
Greedy Predatory lenders
Greedy Wall Street traders selling mortgage backed securities knowing they were bunk just to turn a profit
Greedy investors buying up said securities to make a buck
Greedy homeowners too eager to live the "american dream" not doing their homework on their loans
Lack of regulation
Wait, mortgage backed securities?!?! WTF is this some kind of joke?
Greedy financial executives/CEO's not caring about the long term risks, but more concerned with the next earnings report
The idea that an economy can simply keep growing indefinitely, with no decline, forever and ever and everyone gets rich!!1111- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1You forgot:
-mark-to-market accounting rules
-the legislators who pushed Freddie, Fannie, the CRA, etc.
I personally wouldn't place any blame on capitalism or free markets, since they most certainly weren't thanks to the wrong kinds of regulation from Congress, championed by representatives who lack a decent understanding of basic economics.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1You forgot:
- SuperVepr308, on 11/20/2008, -2/+8Many people just went buck ***** wild thinking things would never change. Well, they did and now the ***** has hit the fan. The consumers went nuts spending, the gov'ment encouraged it, and the banks didn't mind at all. The bad part is, the consequences are not spread out as evenly as the blame. Bankers are still rich, Dodd/Frank/Pelosi/Many Republicans got a free pass and the consumer is picking up the bill whether they deserve it or not. Yes, it's ***** up but them's the facts.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Except its the BIG WIGS getting the bail outs. WE still owe our debts while they get off scott free.
current estimates are that 60% of the bailout will be pend on "pay and bonuses" etc.. while the rest will NOT be spent (the POINT of the bailout to reignite the economy) but KEPT to insure the can stay afloat during the down turn IE SCREWING everyone else.- SuperVepr308, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1I agree. Like I said, the consequences are not spread out evenly.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1"Dodd/Frank/Pelosi/Many Republicans got a free pass..."
Dodd/Frank/Pelosi pushed, supported, and defended Freddie and Fannie. The statements they made regarding those institutions are utterly ridiculous (including but not limited to Frank saying there was no risk in subprime mortgages). What Republicans are you referring to? There may be a handful of rogue Republicans that sided with Democratic leaders, but most Republicans were squarely behind Paul Ryan fiercely opposing this idiocy. The Democratic leaders are representative of their party; to cite them as a problem and then cite Republicans at large and not Democrats is ridiculous.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Except its the BIG WIGS getting the bail outs. WE still owe our debts while they get off scott free.
- thepoliticalcat, on 11/21/2008, -1/+11I agree with berlindoctor. I bought my house with a loan, but paid more than the minimum downpayment because I did not want to pay mortgage insurance. I bought what I could afford. I took out a HELOC, but paid it all back as quickly as I could. We pay all our bills on time, have no outstanding credit card debt, don't spend on "luxuries" and drive well-maintained old cars, recycle, compost, eat at home, cook everything from scratch. So I refuse to accept any blame. Our spending habits are very moderate and when we both work fulltime, we save approximately one-third or more of our combined income. We don't buy new clothes every season and we don't replace anything that is whole and still usable. A lot of people lived beyond their means for a decade or more. Now they're going to have to learn to live with less.
- slowth, on 11/21/2008, -0/+6Unfortunately, you have no choice in the matter. You will accept the blame and pay the consequences because we live in a global economy. We all appreciate your frugal living, but it doesn't mean jack squat when there is a systemic failure.
- prahareturns, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2It's great that you (and I) are among the ranks of the fiscally responsible.
BUT, if you vote (or don't vote) then you and I probably carry some of the blame. It was our elected officials who pushed Fannie and Freddie deep into the sub-prime market to bolster home ownership.
- StayCee, on 11/21/2008, -2/+8No one made anyone buy or move into anything. Americans have always have this attitude that someone will just come behind them and clean up whatever mess they make. Everyone wants the government to bail these failing companies out, but if they had of tried to get involved when the getting was good then everyone would have been screaming socialism and freaking out. We can't have it both ways.
If you make your bed you have to lay in it, no matter how many people you're sharing sheets with.- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1THATS THE PROBLEM STAYCEE
WE have to make our bed and LAY IN IT but the corporation DO NOT
THEY get to make a mess and force US to lay in THERE bed because a government bailout means CITIZENS are paying THERE bad debt (and WILL STILL owe our own debt on top of it)- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1While I do disagree with the bailouts that have occurred and likely will, you must at least recognize the role of Congress in exacerbating what may have been minor problems. CRA, CAFE, Fannie, Freddie, and mark to market accounting were all created thanks to Congress. Take a look at what your representatives said and did in the creation and perpetuation of those laws and institutions and vote them out if appropriate.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1THATS THE PROBLEM STAYCEE
- gsgdiggs, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Not surprised this one spurred some debate
- moto526, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5Don't forget the dam news media (CNN, FOX), they have really done a wonderful job of scaring the hell out of me.
- digitalArtform, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3The blame:
http://www.slate.com/id/2201641/- mchinsky, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1What a stupid article. He basically paraphrases the very true WSJ articles, but says absolutely nothing other than that bankers are rich. It's like 2/3rds of the posting is missing. Guess thats why slate is in the crapper post election
- thebeersmith, on 11/21/2008, -2/+0as for the housing market, my generation (in their mid-late 20s) would be a victim. the ability to take out no money down, long term loans has made home prices skyrocket (because there is basically an unlimited money supply to fuel that market), and cause there to be far more outstanding debt. we buy houses we technically can't afford because it is our only option in this economic system. saving up a 20% downpayment just isn't as feasible as it used to be. house prices are a direct cause AND effect of inflation.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2I'm in my early 20's and was talking with my wife about housing prices and such. We decided that, frankly, had house prices stayed where they were we may have rented indefinitely. Its hard to take a long look at prices in a historical perspective, but as young as we are even you must have recognized that home prices were sky high. If the average person can't afford the average home, somethings wrong. Wait.
- thebeersmith, on 11/21/2008, -1/+0not quite sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but i know i wasn't exactly clear where i was coming from either. i think the problem is with the system we have now, and people's willingness to give in to it. prices are high because people can take out as big of a loan as they want to outbid the next guy. that's what caused the bubble in the first place. if we went back to the days where we put down a healthy chunk of money for a downpayment, and had overall prices that were well within our reach, then we'd be a lot better off. my wife and i are waiting it out. we're renting indefnitely unless something happens that will put us in the position to buy something we can truly afford.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2I'm in my early 20's and was talking with my wife about housing prices and such. We decided that, frankly, had house prices stayed where they were we may have rented indefinitely. Its hard to take a long look at prices in a historical perspective, but as young as we are even you must have recognized that home prices were sky high. If the average person can't afford the average home, somethings wrong. Wait.
- willdiggforfood, on 11/21/2008, -13/+6NO IT'S NOT MY FAULT I WANT IPODS I WANT TXT MESSAGE PLANS I WANT TO BUY PLASMA TVS AT 3:30AM THE DAY AFTER THANKSGIVING
WAAA, I CAN'T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE, WAAAA
/sarcasm (for the morons who can't read between the lines. This also means you probably voted for Obama)- krnldmp, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1You want to take out a Chinese loan for Middle Eastern oil.
- dynelol, on 11/21/2008, -3/+1Obvious trolling ***** is obvious(ly a *****)
- rmeddy, on 11/21/2008, -1/+7*****: The models used in Wallstreet were inherently flawed to begin with by being Gaussian.
The only mistake that were made was believing these charlatans without question like some kind of Religion. - einsteinxx, on 11/21/2008, -6/+6Wow, an article that blames the right people! Good show! Maybe reading the fine print on ***** you sign might be help a bit and not expecting things you don't deserve.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1What happens when that fine print can CHANGE any time they damned well please for ANY REASON they damned well please even when you do everything right.
- Nozzle, on 11/21/2008, -1/+9I've never been in debt, and I've been holding off buying a house until I can actually afford it. So I will blame Wall Street, the Feds, Banks, and the dumb*sses who bought houses that clearly could not afford to do so.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2Why blame the people who bought the houses? they are still in debt. They still owe the money. No one is "bailing" them out
only the BANKS who intentionally and with FOREKNOWLEDGE made these bad loans and decisions are the ones being bailed out.
NO ONE can be educated in everything. its physically impossible. there are not enough neurons in your skull nor time in your LIFE to learn everything. We DEPEND On specialization and TRUST.
WE TRUST what the media says. WE TRUST what the government says WE TRUST what the lawyer says WE TRUST what the banker says because we can not POSSIBLE know everything all of them know.
The worst statement I ever heard was this.
Ignorance is no Excuse for the law.
Thats the most moronic thing I ever heard. Ignorance is the ONLY VALID excuse for the law for how can you possibly obey that which you do not know.
Maybe back when Common Sense and LAW meant the same thing that statement made sense but in today's FAULTLESS laws IE laws where no INTENT is needed to be in violation the statement no longer applies.
When the banker SAYS you can afford this and shows you papers that SEEM to bear true.
well the BANKER need to take some of that blame. HE IS educated on this subject matter the consumer is not.
are you telling me I should not get a loan without first getting my degree in economics and being trained a a banker? Your kidding right?
Some things are common sense. A too good to be true deal and crap like that.
but some things are BEYOND the eay comprehension of the average person.
Thats why we HAVE licenses to practice these kinds of things. its EXPECTED THAT YOU will have the information I NEED to educate me and help me make the right decision.
Personally I know they are corrupt and I know the system as a whole is fubar'd so I stay away from it. I will not buy a house unless I can pay in CASH. I will not get a mortgage. not at 100+% interest thats for sure. Give me a mortgage at a reasonable 10% interest and I MIGHT be interested.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2Why blame the people who bought the houses? they are still in debt. They still owe the money. No one is "bailing" them out
- T8erT0T, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3I think it's worth watching the documentary on Edward Bernays for insight on how the monster that is the American consumer was essentially created. The mindset needs to change as we enter these rough times. Google video has it, "The Century of the Self."
It goes beyond subprime and the auto industry. - Syphermce, on 11/21/2008, -1/+3I have been saying all along, people still have the money, everyone has just been brainwashed by the media into thinking the economy is bad so people are scared to spend money. Simple as that.
- wannapiece, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1whew.. and here this whole time I just thought it was debt
Living beyond our means with credit and money that isn't monetary just gave it a kickstart than, huh. - mal1964, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Marketers own us.
- JellyBubbles, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4The real problem is very simple: People don't want to take care of themselves, don't want to work for what they have, don't want to produce anything - these people want other people to do it for them. Whether it's the government giving them money it took from someone who earned it, or some douche who has made a career out of kissing butt, sucking *****, and not doing dick, the means and goals are the same - making others make your living for you.
- macballer30, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2True and true and true some more.
- writer0213, on 11/21/2008, -2/+5A..Freakin..Men. We got ourselves into this.
- krnldmp, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3There is a world economic crysis because most people aren't worth a ***** these days. If you want to count yourself out of that, go for it.
- rizzo2008, on 11/21/2008, -0/+8We lived beyond our means and this is what we get. An economic system based entirely on debt always fails
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -4/+1NO it does not. The people who promulgated this economic system think its working like a charm and IT IS.
The rich get richer. Consolidate buy out merge etc.. etc..
IE they are BREAKING the law of equivalent exchange. they are TRANSFERRING there debt to US.
That system is doomed to failure but NOT on the part of the people who instigated it. THEY will come out on top. Big time. WE will suffer the consequences.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -4/+1NO it does not. The people who promulgated this economic system think its working like a charm and IT IS.
- rectagon, on 11/21/2008, -1/+3The bad financial decisions, for the most part, actually belong to the brokers/bankers. Here's why. They are supposedly the experts and the average Joe (...dare I add... Plumber) depends on the advice of their advisers. We have been taught (usually, rightly so) to seek good financial counsel. All the way up the financial responsibility chain peopel got greedy and stupid. Yes, the home owner should have been more prudent... but MOST of the responsibility belongs to the money people and their regulators. PERIOD.
- kookbutt, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4Thank the baby boomers
- shnuffy, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2And placing blame solves what exactly? Focus on solutions, solutions, solutions...
- omegared, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2how can you find a solution, if the root of the problem is not known?
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Exactly omegared. to find a solution you must first identify the CAUSE of the problem. IE you have to assign BLAME properly where it belongs.
- shnuffy, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1I agree, but the cause of the problem is well known. Resources (or what's left of them) should be put toward finding a solution... if one exists.
It'll be an interesting year!
- msflowers, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2I agree and disagree. I did not go over the top, I don't have a million dollar loan I can't pay BUT bailing out the unemployed, I have been unemployed for almost 2 years. Am I going to get a cut of that *****- NO. Because I can't collect unemployment, nor do I want to. I say "unemployed" as barely making a living running my own business supporting a household. Hell, I can't get a job anywhere else in this economy! So bail out the banks, the stocks, the BIG businesses and where are we all left? In our home wondering how to pay the bills next month.
- anenokoji, on 11/25/2008, -0/+1Would you like fries with that?
- msflowers, on 11/27/2008, -0/+1Going there next week :)
- anenokoji, on 11/25/2008, -0/+1Would you like fries with that?
- shadovvman, on 11/21/2008, -1/+7I handle mortgage loans for one of America's largest lending institutions, and almost all of the borrowers I deal with every day are in default. Many are in active foreclosure.
The stories I hear every day break my heart. Many of our borrowers bought homes they simply cannot afford, but for the most part, the people defaulting on these loans are average families who had loans they could afford but have lost their jobs or had reduction in hours / income due to the economy. They're doing everything they can to keep afloat, but the economy simply won't let them.
I readily admit a lot of this situation is the fault of both greed and a failure to live within reasonable means. But thousands upon thousands of people who are being hit hardest by this economic crunch really did nothing to deserve it.- sulthernao, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2I have a question. At this point wouldn't it more profitable for the banks to not foreclose the homes and work out a deal with the homeowners? Or do they need the liquidity now?
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -2/+1you miss the point. They can forclose sell it again to someone else and make the money TWICE.
its also about CONTROL. yes its really strange. I am pretty good with credit. I have a pretty decent credit score (I made some bad decisions at 18 and got stuck with a lot of debt that I blame no one for but myself)
My interest rate were starting to spike. I was never late always paid more than the minimum etc.. but suddenly all my 6% 8% 9.9% cars were 27% 29% etc..
I got a $5000 card from my bank wachovia. I was not going to touch it but I could not resist the 9% interested (NOT introductory) so I tx'd all my 25+% card balance over to this card.
with interest so low I was making KILLER payments and really paying down the balance. What was going to take me years to pay off was now going to take maybe 10-14 months to pay off! I was stoked!
well I guess wachovia realized this as well and decided well we can't have that.
after 5 months of having a balance (had the card for over 18 months at this point) the interest went from 9% to 31.7% (I ***** you not)
There was NO mean within my ability to pay down that kind of balance at THAT interest rate! Suddenly the payments I was making that were 4 and 5 times the minimum due were now not even enough to cover the monthly interest charges not to speak of the minimum payment.!!
I called them livid what the hell is this? I was not late. I was not over I had good credit (730 or so at the time and it was on its way UP because I payed off a lot of balance why txing them to this card)
There only answer to why was "because we can" you heard me right they did it just because the terms said they could.
I told them return the balance to what it was last month refund everything you charged in the last 30 days and return the interest to 9% or I a not making one more penny of a payment. This debt is no longer mine I do not recognize it as valid any longer. you BREECHED the terms of MY contract with you.
They refused. I stopped paying.
6 months collections 4 more months I laugh when they call.
One guy tried to make me feel bad feel guilty. I said consider this. you have A credit 730+ credit score. NEVER A LATE PAYMENT in 6 years on your credit (once I was able to pay my bills online I never had another late payment I am very forgetful about mail)
You have a balance at 9% and for no reason except "because we can" they jack your interest up to 32%
What would you do? he said nothing for some time before I ended the call with. Thats what I thought you would say and hung up.
He could not agree with me but he also could not tell me I was wrong.
NOW we get to the real good juicy part of the story. the relevant on topic part of the story.
Eventually they call and want to "settle" with me on the balance. They give me all kinds of crazy crap
I said I don't recognize any balance past the day you changed it to 32% eventually we settled on a balance that was what my account was BEFORE the hike in interest but there was a bunch of other terms they wanted I did not like and the monthly payments were beyond my means.
Back and forth for some time and eventually I got fed up and I MADE UP my own contract. I spelled it all out all the conditions closed all the loop holes etc.. I pretty much accepted all there terms except the amount of the monthly payments (I needed $50 lower than they were offering)
I sent it in registered mail etc..
2 weeks later I get another call from them. I say did you get my contract? he actually had the gale to LAUGH and say yeah we got it.
I very calmly and sternly stated do I sound like I am laughing. Lets get the facts straight what happens if I say NO DEAL. Nothing happens thats what. you can't do anything to me except lower my already trashed credit score a little more. Woopee.
We talked a bit more.
NOW I want you to read this following part VERY carefully. I offered them $4600 on 99% of there terms with some minor wording changes etc..
they COUNTER offered me "now get this" $1500 in 6 $250 payments.
I was dumbfounded. I was UTTERLY speachless. I said hold on a second went to my pop and asked if he would be able to front me $50 a month over the next 6 months IF I happened to need it (I ended up not needing it which is nice) he said yes I went back and just to clarify.
Let me get this straight I offered you $4600 on my contract (and interest) and your counter offering me $1500 in 6 payments. DO I have this right?
He said yes sir. I did not question further (gift horse and all that) I added one more stipulation that when I paid it off they would expunge ALL of this from my credit. He agreed
NOW did you get that folks? Let me REWORD IT FOR YOU so you can really understand what just happened here.
CONTRACTS are two way. BOTH parties must agree. IE as LITTLE as it may be YOU have leverage in a contract situation. YOU can set terms.
They would rather take over $3000 LESS MONEY and be able to set 100% of the terms than allow the precedent to be set that I THE CONSUMER have some say in these contracts.
IT WAS THAT important for them to maintain the image that THEY AND ONLY THEY set the terms.
HOW FRELLING messed up is that?
NOW I also understand why Wachovia was so desperate for money that they would do this and JACK up interest and hope people would be able to pay. They are nearly bankrupt.
I am STILL fighting to make them honor there agreement to expunge this incident and account from my credit. - shadovvman, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Depends on what you mean by profitable.
Under normal circumstances, foreclosing means the bank still loses $20,000 - $40,000 average.
Under normal circumstances, the bank doesn't want your house but will take it because that option is better than the alternative of never recouping any funds at all.
Under these circumstances, howeve, all banks -- and my bank in particular -- are bending over absolutely backwards to accommodate through loan modifications.
Problem is, so many of these people are so up-side down in their houses or are making so little money they can't even afford the interest on their loans. No way to modify them.
It's really, really a mess.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -2/+1you miss the point. They can forclose sell it again to someone else and make the money TWICE.
- sulthernao, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2I have a question. At this point wouldn't it more profitable for the banks to not foreclose the homes and work out a deal with the homeowners? Or do they need the liquidity now?
- LAhazmat, on 11/21/2008, -2/+5I live in a modest home and drive an 8 year old car. So you see I STAYED within my means kind Sir. Now ***** OFF!
- dieboldcracy, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1touche'
dugg for name too
- dieboldcracy, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1touche'
- darladoon, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5i think most digg users realize that it is not an 'either/or' sort of situation, but a 'both/and' situation. americans are to blame as well as the government.
- xtraa, on 11/21/2008, -2/+4hmm, smells fishy. Is the author a banker?
- darladoon, on 11/21/2008, -0/+0do a google search for 'credit default swap' and you'll see what i mean...
- CalmLlama, on 11/21/2008, -1/+7The economy isn't actually doing that bad for consumers, the companies are the ones hurting. I really don't see a need to bail them out either. The people running these companies are making obscene amounts of money and not making a product that sells. Companies shouldn't be bailed out for making poor business decisions.
- sulthernao, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Correction: It's not bad for consumers with a job. Too bad you won't have a job for long (in a bad economy). If corporations are hurting then they will lay people off. Unemployed people can't consume, hurting companies more, etc. It's a vicious cycle.
- dieboldcracy, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2the economy isn't doing that bad for consumers
(insert Massive hyperinflation 2009.....eg.... $25 dr peppers)
near future: the breadlines weren't that bad today
- dieboldcracy, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2the economy isn't doing that bad for consumers
- mrwhitethc, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Exactly, where's all the big wigs with their million dollar golden parachutes and all their salaries and bonuses up the ass? Why won't they bail out their own company, they've run it, why can't they fix it? Mom and Pop sink every last dime they own into their business to make it better, Fat Ass CEO sucks every last dime from the company and then asks the government to pay up. I say no, raid their bank accounts for money if they need it so badly and freeze their assets if they try and jump ship. You made this bed not me, now you fix it or return all your money and let someone else fix it with that cash.
- sulthernao, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Correction: It's not bad for consumers with a job. Too bad you won't have a job for long (in a bad economy). If corporations are hurting then they will lay people off. Unemployed people can't consume, hurting companies more, etc. It's a vicious cycle.
- BlacklabelSAR, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4It is no accident that the people of a country that lives beyond it's means also live beyond their means.
- moothemagiccow, on 11/21/2008, -1/+0I didn't do *****. Let's blame it on the people involved with subprime mortgages and not try to dick around with the truth.
- bodegit, on 11/21/2008, -2/+1I think gas prices had something to do with it.
- julianp, on 11/21/2008, -1/+1Just more proof that the word "finance" is the word of a slave.
- thebeersmith, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3also: we can partly put blame on our public education system. did anyone honestly learn about how to properly plan your debt while in school? knowing how to do it properly is NOT as common sense as some think. it's a complicated process, and it's something we're not taught in school when we should be.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1ITS NOT a complicated process at all thebeersmith.
IT WAS INTENTIONALLY AND BY DESIGN manipulated and distorted to MAKE it complicated.
DEBT is not complicatd. THERE fantasy form of debt currently in play is complicated.
SMALL but oh so critical distinction.- getbusyliving, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Take responsibility for once in your life, jesus.
- Nerys, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1ITS NOT a complicated process at all thebeersmith.
- jaxontyler, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3The voter is NEVER wrong...no politician or company would ever tell us that.
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